Know Your Money with Bronwyn Waner and Craig Finch
Know Your Money with Bronwyn Waner and Craig Finch
133. Your Personality Was Decided Before Birth
What if the key to understanding yourself was discovered 2,500 years ago? In this fascinating conversation with Enneagram expert Joni Peddie from Resilient People, we unlock the secrets of this ancient personality system that's transforming modern relationships and workplaces.
Joni, who has studied the Enneagram for 33 years, reveals the surprising truth that we're born with our personality type – it's not something we develop over time. "Even identical twins have different mental temperaments," she explains, challenging common assumptions about personality development. Her passion for this system is infectious as she breaks down the nine distinct types, arranged in three triads: Anger (8,9,1), Feeling (2,3,4), and Thinking (5,6,7).
The real magic happens when Joni explains how this knowledge transforms relationships. Through personal stories – including how the Enneagram helped her daughter navigate her engagement – she demonstrates how understanding your partner's type creates more compassion and less judgment. Corporate teams worldwide have embraced this tool to improve workplace dynamics, with some companies requiring Enneagram assessments for all new employees.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is Joni's explanation of how we can move between healthy and unhealthy expressions of our type. "We can all move up and down within half an hour," she notes, describing how understanding these patterns helps us put our "best self forward in life." She emphasises that while our core type never changes, we can integrate positive aspects of other types to become more balanced individuals.
Ready to discover your type and transform your relationships? Listen now and take the first step toward what Aristotle called "the beginning of wisdom" – knowing yourself.
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hello everybody, welcome to know your money.
Speaker 2:I'm bronwyn weiner and I'm craig finch and we are from growth financial planning. We hope you enjoy our podcast.
Speaker 1:Hi everybody. Today we have Joni Petty from Resilient People. One of Joni's specialities is the Enneagram. So, joni, if you can introduce yourself and just maybe explain what the Enneagram is and how that can help a person, just be okay with who they are and in day to day. Thank you for coming.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. You could get me talking on this topic for three days without taking a breath. So the Enneagram is a system of personality. Wait for it. It's 2,500 years old. It's a very old system.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, pythagoras used it. There's a whole lot of maths in it, and it was originally Gurdjieff who used it as a system of movement. And then only in the 60s and 70s did we start seeing, hey, the psychology around it. So I studied 33 years ago in New York with Enneagram Institute and actually now in July it's going to be an anniversary of Don Riso looking. He sat in Harvard Business School Library for 10 years looking at the three-dimensional nature of the Enneagram. So it's a very much a three-dimensional system. But here's the bottom line. The bottom line is let's pretend this is an egg in your mom's tummy, okay, and Bronwyn, this egg splits in your mom's tummy.
Speaker 3:Two identical twin daughters are growing in her tummy. So out pops Bronwyn and out pops Beverly. She chose two Bs. Okay, you would have different Enneagram types. So even identical twins have different mental temperaments.
Speaker 3:So the interesting part of self-awareness is which temperament was I born? And we each have all of the nine types within us, but you have a predominant lens on the world and that's how you solve problems, conflict, communicate with people, how you self-manage in different ways. So, yes, your behaviors can change over life, but your Enneagram temperament does not change over life. So you're born with this, charlie. You are born with this Incredible.
Speaker 3:It is incredible and it's incredible to see how people grow and change over the years. So there might be, you know, you might have a center of gravity here in the average range and you'll have an elastic band around that. So I might go for a run in the mornings, craig, and be on top of the world with my mates and looking at the fauna and flora and discussing things and just feeling so excited about life, and then be fairly healthy in my type 3, enneagram type. And then I come back to my desk. I want to type an email and someone has denigrated my PA, cheryl, and then I'm blood on that keyboard. So I go from being really a healthy person in terms of understanding people and putting my best self forward to wanting to chop them off at the knees. So we can all move up and down within half an hour.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But we've really got to understand who we are, what our lens is on the world and how do we continue to be our best selves? What should we put on my epitaph is knowing thyself is the beginning of wisdom, and that's good old Aristotle. So if you know the type that you were born, Craig, you will really be able to put your best foot forward in life and self-manage vastly differently in terms of being self-aware.
Speaker 2:And how do you do this? Do you have to go on a program Like you run a program?
Speaker 3:I run a program, but you don't have to do that. So there are times that people come to me for coaching and, yes, I'll ask them to do an assessment online first, but then I'm not slave to the assessment results. So I'm very lucky that I've done it for 33 years and I'll be able to ask enough provocative questions so that the person finds out which type they were born. And very often people are using two or three types. But which type were you born? And there's lots to it. So there's wings and each type has a subtype, and then there's levels of psychological health. So there's up to 54 variants for each type.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of depth here, which is why, when we get accredited, it's four seven-day periods in New York. You know you go back four times. You know 14-hour days. There's a lot of depth to it, a lot of assessments. There are also some Enneagram practitioners who do a one day course. Stay away from a little bit of knowledge is dangerous, so there's various ways of doing it. But there also sometimes people will come to me and they'll say look, joni, I don't want to do an assessment, I just want to chat to you and in that chatting You'll know what they are. Well, I never tell people I've signed that Hippocratic Oath because that robs them of their self-awareness. But I will describe all the nine types and ask them enough questions that they will be able to ascertain which they were born. And actually very often they'll describe their partners, their children, and we can ascertain those types as well.
Speaker 2:So once you know your type, you've got the knowledge to deal with your general personality, or how you react to certain circumstances. That's the idea behind it, right?
Speaker 3:100%. In fact, you're so spot on on the money Excuse the pun, craig is that one of my delegates years ago said to me they'd come on a course with me. I do normally teams, corporate teams, and I'll never forget. She came up to me and she said Joanie, you know what I feel like I can see under people's hoods now. I can really understand what makes them tick and that's really why I get easily bored. So I never read the same book twice, go to a movie twice. But I never tire of teaching the Enneagram because it's so much variety and it's so interesting especially corporate teams, looking at the leader's type and then how it plays out with their team members and new team members joining, et cetera. It's really fascinating.
Speaker 1:Alan Gray uses that a lot. So anyone that joins they have to do the Enneagram and they know how they can work well with each other and yeah, yeah, it's really.
Speaker 3:it's game changing. Yeah, Understanding how people work well.
Speaker 4:So understanding it a little bit more for me, because I'm still stuck Is an Enneagram, kind of like psychological profiling.
Speaker 3:No, it's more around temperament, of attitude and behavior.
Speaker 4:Okay, Could you give me an example of how you would assess somebody for it? Just so I can understand.
Speaker 1:Or maybe explain the nine types first, and then you'll understand.
Speaker 3:I can give you a very quick answer. So there's a number of online assessments Globally. Some are great, validated and reliable, and some are assessments that are just put together over and out. So look for a globally validated assessment and then that will give you the score for all nine types.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 3:And then a skilled practitioner will be able to say right, warren, you've got two close scores in the type seven and the type eight. They're neighbors here. Let me ask you enough questions around how you solve problems, how you deal with conflict, how you communicate, how you use innovative thinking, et cetera. So enough life skill questions and then help you ascertain which type you were born.
Speaker 4:Okay, and what are the nine types?
Speaker 3:So I'll whiz you through them. It doesn't matter where I start. I always start with the type eight, because it's really three neighborhoods. So eight, nines and ones live in the anger neighborhood. Eights will act out their anger. Called a challenger, trump is a type eight. I won't say much more. Type nine is called the peacemaker. They deny their anger. They're the neighbor to the type eight. They were like everything's fine in a meeting. That's my husband.
Speaker 1:Everything's fine in a relationship and they sweep it under the proverbial carpet.
Speaker 3:The type one is called the reformer or the perfectionist. So this is the right thing to do. They control the anger. No, I'm not angry, so it's just fine. But of course they're angry, so that's all in the anger triad. Then the twos, threes and fours are in the feeling triad. The twos beautifully act out their feelings. Very, very good interpersonal skills I could tell when I was telling my story earlier on the emotion that came up here which is so beautiful.
Speaker 3:It's really beautiful. I'm born a type three, also in the feeling triad. Threes often deny their feelings in order to achieve and get the task done. And fours will sink into their feelings. They're very much kind of chin to chest and navel gazing like how do I feel about this? And beautifully, dramatic and linguistically very powerful. Often. You know there'll be script writersriters or poets or you know whatever Artists.
Speaker 3:Artists, in whatever form. Yeah, Then the last triad is the fives, sixes and sevens. That's the thinking triad. The fives are very much the investigator. You know deep research. How do I know this? Musk is a five, Elon Musk. Type six is the loyalist. They're the most difficult to describe, Warren, out of all the types. They will have a phobic like, I'm nervous, I'm anxious, and then they'll have a counterphobic side where they'll go in where angels fear to tread. So they are the loyalist four. And then the sevens are the enthusiasts. They're like what's happening in the future, let's make things happen. They've got a thirst for newness and a gluttony for spontaneous experiences. Can I ask another question?
Speaker 4:Yeah, in your experience with doing this with people, do you find that there is a majority amongst one number, or is it even spread? No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3:It's literally I can do this in and we have done it around the world, from Mexico to Monaco to Abu Dhabi, and it doesn't matter which country you're in or which culture you're in. There's a spread of types Interesting. There's also what we've done is a lot of studying on. There's definitely a predominant type in organizations. There's a predominant type in countries as well, just in terms of a behavior set, but there's no one type more than the other.
Speaker 4:And where did this originate from? You said it's 2,500 years old. So the.
Speaker 3:Sufis did a lot with this and a lot of the early Neoclator philosophers did a lot of gathering of this knowledge and then, as I said, Pythagoras used it. So it's a circle. This is on an oval right now because it's in a cake. But, it's actually a circle with a triangle and a hexag.
Speaker 2:So in a marriage this could help a lot.
Speaker 3:Tremendously. I've done a lot of marriage counseling A lot, a lot. Butremendously, I've done a lot of marriage counseling a lot, a lot.
Speaker 2:But you should do it before the marriage, that's true.
Speaker 1:And I've done that too.
Speaker 3:Okay. So my eldest daughter is about to get married, she's 27. And you could be quite careful in your own home that you're not pushing your own passions on your children. Of course, my children. They've grown up with it, so they've been on many Enneagram courses with me. She's a type one and she's a very strong minded type one, perfectionist yes, perfectionist.
Speaker 3:And so she brought home this guy that she'd met at Stellenbosch University and he's a lovely, quiet guy. He's in the financial services field as well, very quiet, the Peacemaker, type 9. And so I thought I wonder how this is going to work out. So he started asking me about the Enneagram and he did an assessment and I debriefed him and it was early days, you know, they'd just finished university and living in digs in Johannesburg with all their mates.
Speaker 3:And he came around one day and my Type 1 daughter was being quite stroppy unusual for her Bum, bum, bum, quite stroppy, unusual for her. And I was wandering around the kitchen and I heard him Nick is his name say to Kayla, my daughter you know, kayla, you never answered my question and I heard her kind of come to a halt. She was running around the kitchen and she said Nick, you're right, I didn't answer your question and I just thought that deep inner strength of the type nine. So it doesn't matter that he's slightly withdrawn and she's more of an assertive type one. It's the dance that you do together. So all types you know interplay well together and most especially when they're on the healthy side.
Speaker 4:Anyway, I did say that. Do those lines have meaning as well, how they're joined?
Speaker 3:Oh, yes, yes, yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You can describe mine, if you want.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'll describe Bronwyn's. Okay, she's the problem child. I'm only teasing. No, no, so Bronwyn as a type two here that side. Oh, I'm on the wrong side. Yes, there we go, thank you. Oh, I'm on the wrong side. Yes, there we go, thank you. Bron was born as a type two or died as a type two, but to be the better version, psychological health as a type two, she's going to put on her type four. So more less giving of other people, more self-aware I mean, you just described courses you've been accredited in, so really investing in yourself, which is a sign of a healthy two.
Speaker 1:So how I can describe it is what I did. My Enneagram on was for parenting. So I do give to my kids to basically burn out and I didn't know how not to. So giving just comes naturally to me, it seems normal. But I give without giving to myself.
Speaker 1:So lately I have done things like going on a course or taking some time out and it's helped my relationship with them and my marriage and my work, because now I can feel a little bit more balanced. So for me to go into a four, which is like so how it was described, is a two is a you, you, you, what do you need? And a four is a me, me, me, what do I need? So how do I a me, me, me, what do I need? So how do I try to tap into that a little bit, but then not go to the other extreme, because sometimes I do that in the two just give, give, give and then just be like I just need five minutes, leave me alone. You know, yeah, going all the way to the, I'll bring in my ape, donald Trump, and scream and get all angry.
Speaker 3:So let me just answer Warren. Just in terms of the linguistics here is important. There's no movement. Yeah, you're born this too. You're going to stay the too. So what Bronwyn's so beautifully done is she's invested in herself, which makes her a healthier too. She's gone up the layers of the cake, more high functioning, which means her perspective and her balance is better and she won't burn out. When she loses the plot and she gets angry, she behaves like an unhealthy type eight. So what we call it is integration Integrate the four into the two and disintegration. When she's disintegrating, she'll behave like a lower eight. So these lines have a lot of movement. So this is the healthy line for two and then an unhealthy line.
Speaker 3:So if I had to describe it in another way, I love food. Okay, if someone had to say to me Joni, you know what? I've always had oats for breakfast. I find that satiating and that's what I love to have for breakfast, I say, brilliant, carry on with your oats, that's your type two, so that you're going to have forever. But you're going to be a better version of your bowl of oats if you add almonds, blackberries, gooseberries, you know, sunflower seeds. So you add to your type two. Which is why these lines diverge? Because the minute Bronwyn's only being the type 2 down here, she's stuck in her type. You actually want to be liberated out of your type. So she's become a healthier type 2 because she's pulled on her 4 and actually there's. If we were discussing this at PhD level, you would also pull on the higher piece of your type eight as well. So it's all pulling into who you are and just being a better version of who you are.
Speaker 2:Incredible, warren we need to do this. Yeah, I'll do it Be very good for your marriage.
Speaker 3:But, craig, your point that you had earlier is an excellent point is that I would love young couples to do this before they get married, to really understand and to really dance. And I'll give you another example With my daughter last night she came around and she was on a mission, as type one perfectionists can be, and she was on a soapbox about a certain person in her husband's family. So I said to her I said, kayla, you know, you, you very clear thinking, because ones, can you know, think in boxes and quite linear and with their money as well. I said, let's, let's look at this more flexibly. The better version of your type one is to be more understanding of this person in that bigger family circle and actually the assets she will bring to you. And how can you reach out to her without judging her?
Speaker 3:So the Enneagram, as the last sentence, is called a tool of compassion and it took me 15 minutes to get through to her last night to say, really, the family motto in our house is less judgment, more compassion, and you've known the Enneagram for all your 27 years because I spoke to you about it as a baby. Is that just be a better version of yourself, type one. We are all different except our differences, and that's what makes the world so exciting. And be more compassionate to yourself and be more compassionate to others, and then you've got it sewn together.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Thank you so much, joanne, that was so insightful.
Speaker 3:It was great.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, joanne. That was so insightful. Thank you, thank you.