Know Your Money with Bronwyn Waner and Craig Finch
Know Your Money with Bronwyn Waner and Craig Finch
98. Child Maintenance Challenges and Solutions
Explore the intricacies of maintenance in divorce proceedings with Bianca from "D's for Divorce" as we unravel the layers of financial responsibilities that too often lead to conflict. Join us to dispel common myths about maintenance, which extends beyond the basics like school fees and housing to encompass everyday expenses such as groceries and utilities. Bianca shares her expertise on how to calculate maintenance by identifying shared household expenses and child-specific costs, offering essential guidance for parents navigating the transition to separate lives. This episode promises to equip you with the clarity needed to understand the financial obligations during and after divorce.
We venture into the emotional and legal challenges of child maintenance, spotlighting a real-life scenario involving a wealthy father who stops payments for his university-attending child. This situation underscores the critical importance of securing child maintenance and the often tedious process involved in proving hidden assets. Our conversation emphasizes the role of courts in safeguarding children's financial interests while advocating for mediation and fair settlements to ease the emotional burden of divorce. As Bianca shares her personal insights, we highlight the necessity of prioritizing children's well-being amidst evolving family dynamics, urging mutual consideration and sustainable living post-divorce.
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Welcome to Know your Money, where we will explore our relationship with money and how the psychology of it impacts our financial decisions, as everyone thinks about money differently. In our podcast, we'll be presenting a variety of financial topics in an easy to understand way, which we hope will assist you with managing your money.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Craig Finch, co-owner of Growth Financial Planning, an independent financial planning practice, and I've been a financial planner since 1986.
Speaker 1:Hi everybody. I'm Bronwyn Wehner, co-owner of Growth Financial Planning. I'm a certified financial planner and our philosophy at our company is to grow yourself to grow your wealth.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone. My name is Warren Grimsley. I'm a director at Rogue Media and help facilitate this wonderful podcast. My main goal here is to try and understand what these two lovely people are saying so that we can all understand. Hello everyone, welcome to Know your Money. Once again, we have Bianca here again for Dears for. Divorce. Bianca, can you, for the new listeners, give us a little background on what you do and who you are?
Speaker 4:Okay, so I'm Bianca from D's for Divorce. It is a passion project of mine that I kind of started after my own divorce and it serves as a way to just help people navigate divorce and kind of recover, and the slogan is from bitter to better together, so kind of it pretty much tells you what it's about. I think that's good, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, Bianca, nice to see you again. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Although we flipped by and we chatted a bit in the past two episodes about maintenance Sure, should we just unpack that a bit, let's do that, and how that works and doesn't work, sure.
Speaker 4:So maintenance is actually probably the biggest cause of acrimony in divorces. Right, because it's money, and nothing pains somebody more than having to pay money over to somebody that you don't really like, and it is something that I find our courts are inundated with maintenance matters. Right, because it's generally women who are fighting to get payment for their kids and this is a very general statement. It's not for everybody, right, but generally you will find that men will use money and I've said this before men will use money as a means of weaponizing right the situation, and women will use children.
Speaker 4:So I think there's a very mistaken idea about maintenance and it's an assumption that maintenance only covers, let's say, school fees, medical aid and a house. It's not. Maintenance covers so much more. And when you're calculating maintenance, you're taking into consideration things like pet food and entertainment and contribution to Wi-Fi and the other, parent's car and toiletries and groceries and domestic workers and gardeners. It actually incorporates every single day-to-day living expense or a contribution there too, right, and I think that's where the biggest problem comes in, because men are sitting there thinking but the child doesn't cost this much to raise, right? Or the non-primary parent, let's say rather, doesn't have an idea what it actually costs on a day-to-day basis to raise a child, and so that's where the conflict arises. And we've got two branches of maintenance right. We've got maintenance for kids, which is automatic, and every parent has got a responsibility to pay maintenance towards their children.
Speaker 2:Is that in law? That is in law.
Speaker 4:There's four parental responsibilities and rights. It's care, contact, guardianship and maintenance. Okay, and then there's spousal maintenance, which you have to apply for, and that's for if your partner leaves you and you're a stay-at-home mom or a stay-at-home dad. You then have to apply to the courts for them to kind of continue funding your lifestyle so that would be on.
Speaker 3:So we say sorry, sorry that would be on top of the the child maintenance that would be separate to the child maintenance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's definitely Separately.
Speaker 4:It's two separate things, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you just determine how much each child is going to receive Exactly. Who determines that the court.
Speaker 4:So there is a form that you fill out and it actually lists all of the expenses, right?
Speaker 2:So you don't need to go to a lawyer, or you could just agree you don't.
Speaker 4:but I'm going to tell you how to work it out. Right, because you've got your shared expenses. Your shared expenses are, for example, electricity, water, bond payments, domestic workers, whatever that. So that's a shared expense. So any shared expense shared by the people living in the household, you have to split and work out a child's portion. Let's say, for example, I'm a single mom, I have two kids. All of my shared expenses are going to be divided by four. So you take the number of people living in the house plus one.
Speaker 4:Okay, so if you live with your parents, you include them plus one, okay. And then each child is given a portion. So in my case, my one child is given a quarter of the shared expenses, my second child a quarter and I'm responsible for half, okay, okay. And then maintenance is in a portion of those two quarters, by the other parent and myself, because both parents are responsible for maintenance.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes.
Speaker 4:So those are your shared expenses. Then you've got child-specific expenses, which is then school fees. I don't know what else. There is Extramurals. Self-employed contracts extramurals medical aid, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Do you have like a tool that we can put somewhere and put? Up no we should develop one, I'm sure, there are.
Speaker 4:Look, I haven't ever made use of it. I just sit with my clients generally. And what's difficult about divorce right is because if you're living in one household, how do you know what your expenses are going to be if you have? To now find your own place. Yes, and do is. We get estimations and we kind of, even if you get like a year idea, we split it up into 12 months and we work it out. So the maintenance calculations are really quite difficult.
Speaker 2:For child maintenance For child maintenance yeah, and then does it end at a point.
Speaker 4:Child maintenance ends when the children are financially independent should be, but from the age of 18, it will then become the child's responsibility to sue the parent for maintenance. And you know what I've?
Speaker 1:also realized is some clients don't apply for maintenance through the court. So they just, you know, the divorce goes okay and they agree on it, but if the person dies, there's no court order for the maintenance to continue. Sure, so if they got remarried, they don't necessarily. They can just fall away if there's no actual court order. So is it important?
Speaker 4:to Well, I think it's important to have it enforced and made a court order because it gives a teeth right. But if you are paying maintenance every month for three years and you stop paying, you've kind of set a precedent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but what's to say if the client only has a life policy and has left everything to their new wife and the pension fund might give everything to the new wife and not the child? I mean, they do often look through that. But you want the court's order there so that the part of the life policy or business, you could see the life policy. Yes, what would be the repercussions of failing to?
Speaker 3:make payments. It's a criminal offense Criminal offense, really it's a criminal offense to not pay maintenance?
Speaker 4:Yes. What would be the repercussions of failing to make payments? It's a criminal offence, criminal offence, really. It's a criminal offence to not pay maintenance.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, but I don't see people in jail. I see them running around.
Speaker 4:A warrant will be put out for your arrest. You can get gone as she orders. The problem is who's going? Maintenance by the mother and he's like, but how do I get the mother of my child arrested? Yeah exactly, and they play on that right. That's why you can't have emotions. You just have to, unfortunately, enforce it or accept, and that's the reality. That's why our maintenance courts are inundated with people fighting for rands and cents to make ends meet.
Speaker 2:But this is for children.
Speaker 4:now this is for children.
Speaker 2:And children will always get some money there. That's the law they do. But the spouse is another story.
Speaker 4:Spouse is separate. So what I will say is if, let's say, your co-parent biological dad or mom can't pay, you can then look to the grandparents to pay maintenance, and if not grandparents, then great-grandparents, and if not great-grandparents, you can then go to siblings. So the Maintenance Act actually makes provision for if your co-parent falls on hard times, you can look to their parents to make payment, or that person's grandparents or siblings.
Speaker 3:Really, yeah, sure. So if I have a child and they get married, and they can't make their child payments once they have their own, you can be taken to court for maintenance.
Speaker 4:I can then be liable for it. Sure Oi Finn Don't do it, don't do it, buddy. But you'd have to call both sets of parents right, because maintenance is apportioned based on each parent's earning ability or available income, so it's not necessarily 50-50 contribution.
Speaker 3:It. It's not necessarily 50-50 contribution.
Speaker 1:It's a good thing though isn't it really that the child legally is safeguarded to quite a high degree absolutely, and as a grandparent, you would do that I think you would do it anyway but then you know, there's a certain situation I know about.
Speaker 3:I won't mention names, but the husband and wife got divorced and when the child was very young and the father is incredibly wealthy, incredibly wealthy, and he continued to pay maintenance and the child now is at university but hasn't finished university, okay, and he got the sheriff to serve papers to the child saying he's not paying maintenance anymore and I just thought how could a father do that to? The child, I don't know. And how is that legal? They are still unable to earn an income because they're studying.
Speaker 4:They are, but if he's got a part-time job, this child house sits.
Speaker 1:Oh, excellent, but then the child will have to take his father. But there's many an emotions there. I just something else happened, john. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But I think also then it's the child's responsibility to go to maintenance court and say but hang on, you've been paying for three years of my university, why stop now? Right, the courts will examine intention.
Speaker 2:How easy is it to get to the courts? Do you have to go through a lawyer?
Speaker 4:No, you can do it yourself.
Speaker 4:You can, but it's a tedious task and it's really time consuming. And people hide money. You know, I've had a lot of cases where all of a sudden you know her mistress is part owner in a business and like suddenly she's, you know, driving a Lambo and he's pleading poverty, right, and how do you prove that? How do you show that it's not his money or her money? It's really difficult and it's frustrating. I think a lot of people give up, right, but you must remember that it's money for your kids and that's why it's worth the fight and justice does prevail eventually. But you also have to manage your own well-being versus the fight.
Speaker 2:Do you think the lawyers look at the value in their estate, even though they're opposing lawyers and they have a game of golf and a whiskey afterwards and say, well, it's worth this. Let's play the game until we get our fees, sure.
Speaker 4:I think, with divorce as a whole, I think who you surround yourself and who you choose to be in your corner is really, really important.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:I think that's really pick one person to advise you, because everybody's gone through a divorce. Everybody knows somebody who's been divorced. Everybody knows the settlement. My settlement agreement, my maintenance, is completely different to somebody else's.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 4:So you can't. There's no cookie cutter style for maintenance.
Speaker 2:But that's where you provide a service of mediation, where both parties, hopefully, will sit down and take the ego out the room.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And then make sure that they're both unhappy at the consequence.
Speaker 4:They both lose equally, which sounds horrible, but in essence it is a loss, right.
Speaker 1:And you are. You're losing your marriage, you're losing the love you once had.
Speaker 4:So you've got to, and now you're losing a common household. And I think what women also don't realize is that some very pro-men right? I think I really am, because I feel like men are very hard done by in most situations like this, because women can play on emotions right.
Speaker 4:As the breadwinner, but also emotionally right. They don't get as much sympathy in divorce proceedings as women do, but your co-parent has to live. It's not like now that you're divorced and he's, you know, done, you're in. Whatever the case is, you both still have to live and you have to understand that you're both. Now, instead of having one joint household, you've got individual households, so they also have to contribute towards things like bond or rent or electricity. You can't just take him for everything he has and vice versa, right? You have to be considerate of each other.
Speaker 3:You can't stay in the family four-bedroom house and expect him to live in a one-bedroom flat.
Speaker 4:Exactly, and in fact, courts have ordered people to sell assets to say you don't need a five-bedroom house.
Speaker 1:you don't need three cars.
Speaker 4:And if you go into a maintenance inquiry they are going to look had to, we had to do bank statements for a year pre right and at a maintenance inquiry you will sit and the magistrate will go through the bank statement, transaction by transaction and say well, on the 25th of January you spent 600 rand of tops liquor, you don't need that. Cross it out and they will kind of work out how to make more money available for the kids.
Speaker 3:It's tedious and arduous and it's terrible. I love that they're.
Speaker 2:The children are protected.
Speaker 4:They are, that is, by the sounds of it most important. I agree A hundred percent, but it's also a really terrible process to go through. And then, if you don't, then you've got to get the sheriff involved or the maintenance court to kind of subpoena the banks for bank accounts, because what are they hiding? And then you've got offshore accounts. It can become a very complex and difficult and that's when you get lawyers involved, right, when it's a huge estate and people have got a lot available and you're concerned that they're hiding stuff.
Speaker 3:It's sad that conflict between a couple can overshadow the well-being of their children. Without them realizing it most of the time, I'm sure.
Speaker 4:Well, sometimes it's intentional, I think Really.
Speaker 1:That's why I think what you're trying to do is be the light in this instead of the storm in it. Yeah, you know, by doing mediation and trying to focus on the common ground and outcome.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Just be fair, and I mean again I am divorced and I have my co-parent has remarried and has two new kids, and so that's something that I had to be considerate of. I can't now say, oh, you must pay my medical aid for the rest of my life. You now have two children that you need to also think about. So I want you to have a great life and I want you to be successful, because the better you do, the better you can do for my children or our children. Right? And if that's the mindset, if you truly are someone who puts your kids first, then a lot of the conflict will be eliminated and if men realize that there is a lot more to raising
Speaker 4:a child than just a house and medical aid and school fees. Right, it's literally feeding them, clothing them, bathing them, you know entertaining them. Also, their lifestyle needs to remain as consistent as possible. They didn't choose for you to have them. They didn't choose for you to end your marriage, and that should be the focus for maintenance.
Speaker 1:What a great way to end an episode Thank you Boom.
Speaker 4:Mic drop.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 4:Thanks, bea, I think you were awesome. Yeah, that was great, Thank you. Thank you guys.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. If you have enjoyed this podcast would like to subscribe, please visit our website, wwwgrowthfpcoza. The information we have provided in this podcast is our personal opinion. No-transcript.